Samsung HL-S5679W DLP with LED backlight

Samsung must realize those DLP bulbs don't last long enough and cost too much because the new 56-inch HL-S5679W DLP set uses LED lighting. Hey, Samsung, while you're under the hood, why not kill that color wheel too? Oh wait, they did that too with red, green and blue LEDs, which is killer because there's no gold at the end of that rainbow effect. The new tweaks give the HL-S5679W a sweet seven-second startup time and 20,000 hours of little lamp lives. There's no wobulation in this 1080p set, it's full 1920 x 1080 in a progressive format with dual 1080p inputs. Samsung states these will handle 1080p signals, so if it's the real deal, these should be paired up PlayStation 3's, no? Watch for it in April around $4,200.

[tomo_kun @ Jan 7th 2006 12:09AM]

If theres no color wheel, maybe audio/video timing is better and quite possibly accurate? For those of us that play videogames, that is key. Especially video games such as Dance Dance Revolution and beatmaniaIIDX (with this games strict timing window, its impossible to play on a DLP).

[Ima Pseudonym @ Jan 7th 2006 12:25AM]

What if Samsung went one step further and instead of thousands of tiny individual LEDs for each Red-Green-Blue color, they have one powerful white LED which targets the individual colored dots(in place of the LEDs) illuminating the dots based on the image to be projected.

This way, with only one LED emitter or "gun", a person could easily replace it if there is ever a need.

It might be less expensive too!



I think I may be onto something... Samsung, if you use this idea, a modest compensation would be much appreciated. TIA! :)

[tommy @ Jan 7th 2006 12:31AM]

I have always been a fan of samsung's dlp sets and after their recent mods, their sets should be even better. I can't wait to get my hands on that 1080p monster!

[mello one @ Jan 7th 2006 12:54AM]

Does anyone know what the dimensions are for this tv? I'm really curious about how deep it is compared to the HL-R5078W.

[Erik @ Jan 7th 2006 1:54AM]

Hi

Some photos from CES, it was some ineressting stuff, such as a wireless TV

[JD @ Jan 7th 2006 2:23AM]

#1



the ddr and beatmania games in arcades use rear projection screens...the frame window you get is 4 - 5 frames at least. I cant see why you dont think you cant play on a dlp???

[it will still have rainbows... @ Jan 7th 2006 3:06AM]

Rainbows come from having progressive color. That is, by having a single display element that does all 3 colors in succession instead of 3 elements that do them simultaneously. (1-chip vs. 3-chip)



So, this may have different looking rainbows, but it'll still have rainbows. Also, since DLP still cannot do any other luminance value other than full on and full off, it will still have that "live" picture from the rapid flicking on and off of bits to simulate greys. It'll still have trouble rendering near-blacks since the flicker becomes apparent with the low frequency signals used to simulate them.



Will it look good? Well, I dunno. It stands a good chance of it. But my money at this time is still on LCoS.



The price is rather meh, I could at this very moment buy a true 1920x1080 Sony S-XRD (LCoS) 60" for $4299 at Fry's (until 1/10).

[Eric M @ Jan 7th 2006 3:13AM]

tomo, There are no lag issues with DLP TV's. If you are having a lag issue, it's a defect in your specific TV.

[Ryan @ Jan 7th 2006 3:20AM]

Sounds like it could be a nice TV, but the Sony S-XRD does look pretty nice as well.

----------

-Ryan

http://www.cybernetnews.com

[Mike @ Jan 7th 2006 4:03AM]

number 7 is correct, the lag in your samsung dlp tv is specific to the way samsung implements there 480i deinterlacer, the processing takes too much time and it ends up falling behind. As for the rainbow thing mentioned in number 6, yes a progressive color system will always result in possible rainbows, but with this system they can have the ability to refresh the colors at a faster rate, it would be like speeding up the color wheel and adding more segments. If you make the progressive color fast enough it won't be possibe to see the breakup.



As for number 2, if they went with one giant white LED (not possible to make a single LED bright enough for a projector anyways) using one white bulb will require the use of a color wheel. This technology is all done in an attempt to remove the color wheel. So by modulating the red green and blue LEDs along with sequencing them you can get improved color depth (greater than NTSC color gamut) and potentially less rainbow effect. I'm hoping this technology works well and if it does the second generation of this technology will probably be in my living room.

[charlie @ Jan 7th 2006 8:01AM]

lol, my only comfort in having bought a Samsung DLP 720p set about a year ago is that at least it was still a good deal cheaper...



seriously though, I'm bummed out that I dont have 1080p. Its not like I'm going to buy a new big screen TV any time soon.

[earthling @ Jan 7th 2006 9:15AM]

6 and 9. keep in mind that with LED they will effectivly be able to turn the LEDs OFF during the mirrors state change. This may lead to better modulation for grey values and proper (rainbow free) display of color. I would like to see the total claimed brightness for this set, they are very likely going to claim very high contrast ratios but brightness may suffer.



I still like LCoS, specifically HD-ILA from JVC.

[jschaff @ Jan 7th 2006 9:48AM]

For those of us who have older model Samsung DLP's, is there some way to retrofit the new technology LCD source into the older HDTV's?

[t @ Jan 7th 2006 9:56AM]

#9 and #7 I believe you are incorrect. The lag is present in all Samsung TV's. I can only be noticed when pumping audio through a receiver, as the video and audio are then separated from each other and cannot be synced back up if the video processing slows down for any reason.

[Starkenator @ Jan 7th 2006 11:24AM]

Katzmaier on CNET says this tv still uses wobulation, what is the deal?



http://www.cnet.com/5208-11405-0-10.html?forumID=125&threadID=147856&messageID=1651527&start=-291

[spete @ Jan 7th 2006 11:49AM]

Number 6, you are correct and incorrect at the same time. For those displays that do use a single chip architecture, rainbows are possible depending on the speed of the light engine.



The old color wheels were able to deliver ~ 900 sub frames per second, well below the 2500 sub frames a second the Air Force determined was necessary to eliminate rainbows. See this article:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1153392,00.asp

[livefromTI @ Jan 7th 2006 1:27PM]

I'm a DLP employee at CES at the moment and thought I'd set things straight a bit on the Samsung and LED DLP in general.



Samsung's LED TV here is in fact wobulated -- it's the same 1080p chip used in all the DLP 1080p sets on the market at the moment, although this is in fact true 1080p of course. I know there's some idealogical objection out there to SmoothPicture, but honestly I believe it makes a better picture. To me it looks like more like smooth film. Non-SmoothPicture does make sense in our projectors where computer graphics are more the norm.



On the LED system, of course color is still sequential since we use a single panel, but with LEDs, the colors can be switched far far more quickly than a colorwheel's speed -- it's the equivalent of something like a 48x colorwheel. I'd challenge anybody to see any rainbow in that.



We're also starting to take further advantage of our single panel display with the color-wheel based systems. If you're at the show, you can see the other TV we're showing next to the Samsung. It's a 70" 1080p system using a 6-color (RGBCMY) colorwheel that gives it a really awesome looking color gamut. The 3LCD guys are going to be pretty angry when everybody realizes that having to use 3 panels means you can't have more than 3 colors.



Finally, in response to mirror flipping causing some kind of low-level flicker, the DLP panel's switching speed is so fast that there is absolutely no way that anyone could perceive it.



Oh and the dimensions of the LED Samsung are about the same as their standard set.



Hope this helped clear up any confusion.

[Art @ Jan 7th 2006 2:24PM]

Number 13, I also have not yet heard that a DLP chip with true 1920x1080 mirrors exists. HP may have rights to the term 'wobulation', so other companies may call the technique something else (Cinema Smooth)? I also think the technique can be accomplished via different means- moving the chip, moving a lens, changing refraction, etc. So not everyone may do it the same way.

[jasenj1 @ Jan 7th 2006 7:31PM]

Thanks for the details. I'm still holding out for SED, I think.

[Dave @ Jan 7th 2006 11:39PM]

I was already a fan of the Samsung DLP sets. I'd been waiting for a 1080p Samsung DLP that accepts 1080p input. I'd examined the previous models carefully and was not able to perceive ANY rainbow effect whatsoever. The picture was always extremely sharp. Colors and contrast were incredible. The price/performance ratio for DLPs is unbeatable. Can't wait.

[Alpha @ Jan 8th 2006 1:46AM]

So is there or is there not a rainbow effect on these sets??



Instead of thinking of ways to make your articles sound "witty", how about you guys focus on providing clear facts??



If they did away with the colorwheel due to multicolored LEDs, there shouldn't be a rainbow effect, right? Or no? Which is it??

[Brandon Paddock @ Jan 8th 2006 2:19AM]

#14 - I don't know where you heard that about "all Samsung TVs" but I can assure you that my 720p DLP set has no delay at all.



Perhaps you had a delay in your Dolby Digital decoder or something like that?



Believe me, if there were a delay in Geometry Wars I would notice.

[MikeM @ Jan 8th 2006 8:32PM]

IN response to 21:



There is ALWAYS a rainbow effect with DLP's because of the way the technology works. The deciding factor comes in if you can actually see it or not.



About 98% of people can't see the rainbow effect on current sets. These LED's are much faster so that number should decrease even farther.

[Dave @ Jan 9th 2006 12:02AM]

Right. Just like I can see the scan line on a CRT running at 85Hz. I can hear worms burrowing in the ground beneath the foundation of my house, too. I can tell you the exact temparature of the room I'm in simply by the way it feels on my skin. I'm that .0001% you never hear about.

[Wes Niemi @ Jan 9th 2006 1:18PM]

Ok, I think we have reached overkill on the subject. I understand that 4 grand for a tv is a huge amount of money. I did own a Sammy 720p model. Yes I could see the rainbow effect...Not very often, but every once in a while and it didn't bother me. I sold the unit to a friend because I am going to purchase this model with the LED setup. I like the fact there is no more burn-in problems like I had on my first CRT HDTV and that Fox News Channel Icon. And I didn't have any delay between the audio and video. I guess that depends on equipment hooked up these days.



I am happy with the quality of the Samsung DLP models, and although will try out in store this year before I buy...I am almost certain this will be the one for me.

[DLP fan @ Jan 14th 2006 11:36PM]

I have a question for #17 (livefromTI) or someone else in the know, about the LEDs. Are these a replaceable component and if not, how long do they last? I've read that they are and also that they are not replaceable. I've also read that they are conservatively estimated to last 20,000 hours (which I think sounds low for an LED). If they are not replaceable, then they need to last about double that. By my calculations, 20,000 hrs is only just over 9 years if you average 6 hrs a day.

[Paul @ Jan 16th 2006 12:52PM]

This goes back all the way to #1. If you are using a 4200.00 piece of technolgy as fine as this to play DDR, you need to be whipped with an RF modulator and locked in a room with an Atari 2600 on an old black and white set. I look forward to the day when I can watch Deadwood on a set as supurb as this.

[Mike @ Jan 18th 2006 3:05PM]

Does anyone know when this set is going to be made available to the public? I have been holding of purchasing a DLP TV until this one comes out...

[Wes Cunningham @ Jan 20th 2006 9:21AM]

Well to all. It's all opinion. I've seen Samsung DLP that looks great and I've seen Samsung DLP that looks poor. I had two of last years 50inch model. Each one had condensat between the 2 screen panels. I ended up with a RCA that has been discontinued. The only problem I've had with it is the tunver. My dvd player flickers anywhere from 5 to 30 minutes before I get a picture. I'm sure it is the tuner, and this is probably why they discontinued the model. I've never seen a rainbow on a dlp. Again, we all see differently. I think #17 sets is straight. It sounds like a good technology to me. I've got a great Samsung dealer in the area, and they will replace a set if there is a problem I'm going with this 1080p model when it comes out. Of course I will look at it first and hopefully can hook up a Samsung Blue Ray DVD player. If it sucks then hopefully Sonys next generation of the LCOS will have the same cabinet as the A10 series with the speaker at the bottom of the cabinet. Now that would be a sweet tv. See there it is again it's all about how it looks to each individual. I like the Sony LCOS but the cabinet design sucks. Okay Sony put it in the A10 LCD cabinet. Later dudes...

[Don @ Jan 20th 2006 11:27PM]

For 17 - The Samsung employee...I am somewhat confused by your answer regarding the "rainbow". Please clarify...there are 3 separate LEDs (R,G,&B) all illuminating on each of the 2 million mirrors, at the same time. Each color intensity is achieved by PWM (pulse width modulation, aka "on time to off time")for each of the 3 LEDs. This seems to me to be the classic example of "color blending", which totally removes the "strobe effect" of a rotating wheel.
What am I missing here??!
Thanks for your patience!

[Bill @ Jan 25th 2006 7:00PM]

To #28: The press release says they will be available to the public in April.

[Bert R. Biles @ Feb 1st 2006 3:16PM]

We had the opportunity on Jan. 8, 2006, at CES to visit with a TI engineer regarding what TI calls "LED/DLP" technology. Figure 5 on page 5 in the white paper on the TI website entitled "LED TV: Technology Overview and the DLP Advantage" (see http://www.dlp.com/dlp_technology/images/dynamic/white_papers/167_LED_TV_white_paper.pdf) illustrates how TI uses three LED arrays (red, green, and blue) to replace both the bulb and the color wheel.

The LED/DLP demonstration set on display in the TI booth at CES 2006 produced an image that appeared comparable in brightness and resolution to the current bulb/color wheel sets.

One of the technical factors that makes the LED/DLP system practical, according to the TI engineer, is that the "brightness efficiency" of LEDs is currently doubling about every 12-16 months (where have we heard that statement before?!).

The TI engineer told us that, as many have noted, the use of LEDs as the light source completely eliminates the "rainbow effect." As I recall, he also noted that the LEDs will be replaceable.